In the Warren case, Keith wasn’t the only victim. In this episode we’ll hear from Keith’s friends and close family about how they were affected by Keith’s death and the subsequent police investigation.
In the Warren case, Keith wasn’t the only victim. In this episode we’ll hear from Keith’s friends and close family about how they were affected by Keith’s death and the subsequent police investigation. We’ll also hear from psychiatrist Dr. Danielle Hairston who can explain the mental health effects of generational trauma as well as the possibilities of healing practices.
This podcast includes graphic discussion of a violent death. Listener discretion is advised.
The “Uprooted" podcast is the companion to the new discovery+ series “Uprooted,” streaming exclusively on discovery+. Go to discoveryplus.com/uprooted to start your 7-day free trial today.
Find episode transcripts here: https://uprooted.simplecast.com/episodes/ep5-burdens-to-bear
Debra Turner:
It just pissed me off it. I was just mad because why me? What the fuck could I do?
Jack Harris:
This is not a dream.
Debra Turner:
You still hurting. You're still going through the pain.
Robert "Pete" Harris:
And you look at different family members. You can see how some of 'em are ready to bear everything with Keith.
Debra Turner:
You're still going that anguish.
Robert "Pete" Harris:
But some of 'em are not.
Alicia Garza:
I'm Alicia Garza and you are listening to Uprooted the companion podcast to the Discovery Plus mini series reexamining the Keith Warren case. So far, this season, we've talked in depth about the logistics of the Keith Warren case, the details and nuances of the investigation. We've heard from individuals about the systemic failures of the police and the justice system of how they believe Keith's family and other victims like him were denied justice. Today. We hear about the private agony of going through something like Keith's death. As a loved one. In this episode, we hear from his friends and family, the other victims in Keith's death. And later on, we'll hear from psychiatrist, Dr. Danielle Hairston, she'll talk about the mental health effects of generational trauma and the possibilities of healing practices For the family members. The pain of Keith's death was twofold. There was the trauma of discovering their loved one had died suddenly in what looked unmistakably like a murder. Then there was the grief, the actual realization that Keith was never coming back.
Debra Turner:
The very close family.
Alicia Garza:
Keith's Aunt Debra practically helped raise him and his sister Sherri from when they were small children.
Debra Turner:
They were always included. We always watched out for each other. As I was growing, they were always there with me. Teenage years, college years, we were always there.
Alicia Garza:
She remembers Keith as a playful little boy.
Debra Turner:
Growing up, Keith was cute fat cheeks. And you know, and he was a quiet, one, kinda shy mischievous. He was always picking on Sherri. Stop fighting with your sister, leave sister alone whatever the case may be.
Jack Harris:
Everybody liked him. You could not like Keith cuz of his, his personality.
Alicia Garza:
Keith's uncle Jack.
Jack Harris:
He was just so easy going and I don't think I've ever seen him a bad mood.
Alicia Garza:
When the family first heard the news of his death, there was the shock of course, that he was gone. Then the shock that the police had determined his death, a suicide,
Debra Turner:
He would never do that. He was not that kid. He know if he hurt himself, he would've been hurting Sherri and his mom, me, you know, his uncles and everybody and his friends.
Alicia Garza:
The family was also upset and confused as to why they had been kept out of the loop. Why they hadn't been notified of Keith's death until after his body was already sent to the funeral home. But on top of the painful processing, they first had to deal with the most immediate need to bear through it.
Debra Turner:
I have a brother Pete, who was making all the arrangements so we could have to wake that night. I have a sister who's distraught at the same time. She's getting mad and she's getting angry and she's hurting at the same time. And we have to take this four to five hour drive in the car. And that was like the most painful thing that anybody could have to go through.
Robert "Pete" Harris:
Mary said she wanted someone to ID the body cause she couldn't do it. I said, no problem. I do. So when I got there, I went to the funeral home. They would not allow me to see it.
Alicia Garza:
Keith's uncle Pete.
Robert "Pete" Harris:
And I just had to tell them I drove five hours. Not for them to tell me this, him, but to confirm that that was him. And I think they saw the determination of my faith. So they went back and prepared him. And so I did ID him at that time. It was him. But you wonder what happened? Why?
Alicia Garza:
Aunt Deb remembers how she set aside her own grief and confusion to support other family members at the time.
Debra Turner:
You can't say calm down, check a nap, go to sleep. It's nothing you can say, you know, except you just have to ride through it, you know, until you get to the wake, meanwhile time is going on. So it's Saturday night, Sunday morning, you have to get ready for a funeral and go through all that motion and all that, that pain and all that, you know that knot in your throat and just try to be nice to well wishers and whatever case may be like some it's just gnawing at you inside. All you wanna know is an answer.
Jack Harris:
It was disbelief until the funeral to the grave side, it was just disbelief. You know, you have to be there for family. You see what moms going through, you see what Sherri's going through and Mary's going through
Alicia Garza:
Uncle Jack remembers juggling his concern for Mary Keith's mother. And at the same time, trying to understand how this could happen.
Jack Harris:
I kind of lost it at the grave sight, but that whole time, I just felt like I was gonna wake up. Keith was a wonderful kid. He was an awesome kid. And I'm thinking this don't happen to good people. It just don't make sense. How didn't explain stuff, why it happens, why it didn't happen, how to prevent it from having it. So you try to think in a logical manner and just this didn't make sense. It did not make sense.
Alicia Garza:
After the funeral, there was a second loss, the loss of faith in the police, the loss of faith in the criminal justice system to hold police accountable.
Debra Turner:
This is somebody's child. This is somebody's cousin, sister, brother. This is a human being, you know, that belongs to somebody or whatever else. And this is what you come up with.
Alicia Garza:
The family stood by Mary over the next two decades. As she petitioned the police department over and over to look into her son's case.
Debra Turner:
She was smart. Bullheaded strong had no problem expressing her opinion. She could argue until forever, but it was no, you know, no shutting her down because she knew what she was right. And she knew what was wrong. He knew she what she had to do.
Alicia Garza:
They were there for every time. Mary wasn't heard, every time she was ignored. And every time she persevered nonetheless.
Debra Turner:
She knew she couldn't bring it back, but she wouldn't let 'em know like what they did was wrong and it, it was wrong. And so, you know, it was up to them to make it right. And she got taken advantage of.
Alicia Garza:
After Mary's death. Her daughter Sherri took over the mantle of fighting for Keith's case and hit the same dead ends that Mary had.
Jack Harris:
It was disheartening to see what little assistance they got. How hard they had to work and all the roadblocks.
Robert "Pete" Harris:
You need the strength because there's gonna be some other challenges that you gonna face somehow or another. So you need to just hang in and do the best that you can.
Alicia Garza:
Grief is a series of progressive heartbreaks. There's the initial heartbreak. When you lose the person you love, then there's the heartbreak of every milestone without that person, by your side. And that heartbreak of what could have been.
Sherri Warren:
He was my first best friend. He was, I knew nobody else was gonna be there for you knew you have your, your brother, you know? And so when he left, it was like, well, I just lost my best friend.
Alicia Garza:
This is Keith's sister Sherri. After their mom died, Sherri inherited the lifelong responsibility of seeking justice for Keith.
Sherri Warren:
It's a lot of guilt. I'm not gonna say I'm still not carrying it. But the weight is kind of sorta lifting a little each year. Cause you know, there's some things you can't control, but I am a control freak. So in my head, I'm thinking I can be responsible for things. And I'm responsible for Keith not being here. And I'm responsible for mom not being here.
Alicia Garza:
She tries to do her mother and brother proud, but Sherri has had to accept the reality that more than 35 years after Keith's death, there's only so much justice she can ask for. It's been too long and too much of the evidence is gone.
Sherri Warren:
Well, ideally what I would like is the reclassification of his case and the death certificate updated and a letter to my mother from the county apologizing for everything that they put her through, just to get answers about how her child got on a tree and reading that letter to her will bring me a sense of closure. Cause I have completed that part of what I wanted to do was to get her voice heard and her pain acknowledged and her acknowledged, it just pisses you off. Cause it wasn't, it's so unnecessary. I'm not saying that Keith's death shouldn't, he shouldn't have died. Like shit happens like it's supposed to, but not investigating it. Not only did it rob him of justice, but it robbed us of life, happiness.
Jack Harris:
Keith had a lot of potential and I think that's what hurt me at the funeral and everything else. It's like this guy's been taken from this earth. He's got so much to offer, but he won't, he won't get a chance. And I still think of that.
Sherri Warren:
He'd probably be married with some children by, you know, have a career cause he was good with his hands. He's very personable, very likable.
Jack Harris:
He would probably be out in this area cause Keith loves family. He'd probably have three dogs. He would have a very, a good job. I would see him as high levels of a manager, the kind of manager that people enjoyed working for and the kind of people they love having as a coworker.
Alicia Garza:
Today, family reunions are different. Sherri visits, Keith and her mom at their grave sites. She talks to them like she did when they were around.
Sherri Warren:
I'll go by, you know, their graves and I'll sit. And I pull out my little chair, Just sit and talk to 'em and wait for a breeze to come by. And sometimes in my head that breezes a kiss or a hug, you know, I'll tell them I'm going out. You know, I'm going to the store. I'll go to. Yeah, but I don't want, cause I don't want them to worry about me and just like I'm not getting over it or whatever. So, but I know physically they're not there, but there's symbolism there. Funny story is I remember after he died, I had the weirdest dream and it was so real. This was probably a couple months after he died. And I was worried if he went to heaven or hell, I dont know why that I don't know what that was. Right. I think grief allows your head to go everywhere and anywhere. Right. So I was always worried, praying, crying. And so in this dream I was in my room, I'm taking a nap. It's the middle of the day in a dream. And he comes upstairs and which he had always done before. This was nothing abnormal right. And he literally stops
Sherri Warren:
Right before you get into my room. So right at the door, he's like, I'm okay. I'm fine. Stop worrying about me. I'm okay. You need to take care of mom. I'm in the dream. So I'm like, what the hell are you? What? Like, he's like, I'm good. Stop worrying about me. Take care of mom. And then he slow. Then he turned around and walked off. But I was like, I was sad cause I didn't wanna go away again. You know, but doesn't say goodbye. He always walks off. So I know he's still with me. Right?
Alicia Garza:
So far in this episode, we've heard from Keith's family members about how they mourned his loss and the complicated process they went through during their bereavement. Now we'll hear from Dr. Danielle Hairston, a psychiatrist and residency program director at Howard University. She'll talk about the mental health effects of generational trauma and the possibilities of healing practices. So Dr. Harrison, thank you so much for joining us today on Uprooted. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. If you could take a minute and just introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them who you are and what you do and why it matters.
Danielle Hairston:
Who am I? I do a lot of things. I am a psychiatrist, a consultation, liaison psychiatrist in Washington, DC at the Howard University. I also happen to be the President of the American Psychiatric Association's Black Caucus. So I am representing the voice of black psychiatrists across this country.
Alicia Garza:
Mm-hmm
Danielle Hairston:
Well, I think the biggest thing that I come across in my practice is that we don't get our needs met. We are less likely than our white counterparts than to receive mental health services to receive psychiatric care. We aren't offered the same medications. We aren't offered the same level of therapy. We are treated more in a punitive way. I think that even if you go back to the time of the inception of this country, if you go back to the time of enslavement, if you even tried to express yourself or have any feelings, you could be beat down, you could be victimized, you could be abused. You could even be killed. They made up diagnoses and disorders that were based on people wanting to be free. People wanting to leave plantations people, not wanting to be slaved. So even back far, far years ago, we see that mental health and racism has already always had a connection, always been interwoven. And even now when you experience racism that can result in trauma, that can result in anxiety. It can result in depression, what our children see, what we see on television. It can be traumatizing to see someone who looks like you, who looks like your brother, your son, your sister, like Brianna Taylor, like George Floyd, go through these things. And we always knew were happening. But to see it on the screen constantly see it in social media. Like there's just so many effects of racism on mental health. Mm-hmm
Alicia Garza:
Let's do some definitions for people who are listening. Talk to us about what trauma is. What do we mean when we're talking about trauma?
Danielle Hairston:
I guess the most broken down definition that I can think of most easily digestible definition of trauma is pain is hurt. It's a hurt. And it has a whole constellation of symptoms that go with it. When you're talking about it in the context of like post traumatic stress disorder. But what trauma is, I think that people can really understand on the most basic level is hurt. It is pain.
Alicia Garza:
So if trauma is pain or hurt, then what does it mean to have generational pain or hurt?
Danielle Hairston:
So Alicia, as you know, this country has a history of oppression, of abuse, of marginalizing people. And when people go through this victimization, this oppression, this abuse constantly, it can be passed down. You know how you pass down traditions, you pass down recipes, you pass down traditions, cookouts, things like that. But trauma can be passed down just the same way. So trauma generational trauma is when the victimized group develops a trauma response after experiencing something and then they pass it on to their children. And then it's seen as if this is the norm. If this is what is accepted or if this is how you have to operate in order to survive. So for example, if young Alicia saw her grandmother and mother experienced domestic or interpersonal violence, and then they wouldn't talk about it, she thinks that that is the way that you cope.
Danielle Hairston:
That's the way you operate. That's the standard. So you internalize things. You don't talk about it and you just deal with it and you continue to be in this state in this situation. And so when you go into your relationships, you think that if someone is abusive, if someone victimizes you, then that's just the way things are. That's just the norm for my family or that's just the norm for my culture or my neighborhood. So generational trauma is when trauma is experienced or suffered by one generation now that can be an individual. Like I said, a person to person, it can be a collective or it can be a community. And there are negative consequences seen across generations.
Alicia Garza:
People talk a lot about like PTSD and I've heard and read you talking about secondary trauma. Can you define both of those things? What is PTSD? How would someone know if they have it? And then what is secondary trauma?
Danielle Hairston:
Post traumatic stress disorder is like I said, a consolation, a collection of different symptoms we use to diagnose this disorder so they can include things like difficulty sleeping, anxiety, avoidance, which means avoiding the situation or avoiding or something happened where you experience that trauma. It can be hypervigilant, being easily startled by things, things like that. So there's a whole different cluster of symptoms that you need to meet in order to be diagnosed with PTSD. But basically again, if I can break it down in basic terms, it means that a trauma has impacted you so much that it's causing you dysfunction in your life. You're not able to sleep. You're not able to develop relationships. You cannot go to work, you cannot continue your education. You have different issues with relationships, things like that.
Alicia Garza:
Mm-hmm
Danielle Hairston:
So the word for this vicarious trauma is probably what I would use. It's when you experience trauma vicariously. So it's when you feel or experience or suffer the trauma of someone else. If I'm seeing someone go through something on television, in the media or social media, that looks like my family member that reminds me of myself, that looks like my brother, my child, my husband, my daughter, you're experiencing that vicariously. And even though it's in the media, you can picture that. And you can think about that. An example of vicarious trauma. Yes, It's what we've seen with George Floyd. I think an even more visceral and like really just seeing it in your face. What we've seen this year is with the Ahmaud Arbery case, where you literally are seeing someone who could be you, who could be your child, who could be your brother running down the street and literally dying. Mm-hmm
Alicia Garza:
What do you think is the impact of trauma on our society?
Danielle Hairston:
The impact of trauma is pervasive. It goes on and on. It's like a trickle down effect. I've heard it describing this way. Um, in the book, My Grandmother's Hands, if you throw a pebble and then you see the ripple effect across the community, across the generation, it's like, I see that someone is hurt in this way. I experience this trauma and it continues from generation to generation. And sometimes I even refer to it as historical trauma. And it's when something, a pain continues and spreads, it's unhealed, it's unaddressed and people think it becomes part of a culture. It becomes a norm, but it hurts us in. So in so many levels, it hurts us in the way we deal with the man, the way we deal with institutions, the way we operate in systems, the way we have our own relationships, it can result in personality issues. It can result in family dysfunction. It can result in couples issues. It hurts us on so many different levels. It can attack the way that we parent, it can attack the way that we love, it can attack the way that we discipline because of the trauma response that we develop.
Alicia Garza:
So how do we deal with that? Both individually and as a society? I mean, if we know that pain and hurt is a part of our daily lives, both from systems, right? That keep us from the things that we need to live well to live fully in our dignity. What can we do to address that both as individuals and then also as a society,
Danielle Hairston:
Great question Alicia, what we can do to address it is actually address it. I know that as I said, for generations, the way that you were able to survive since the beginning of this country is don't express your feeling. Don't say that you you're unhappy with something just been in grin and barrett, just make it through. Think that that's the experience of our elders, of our ancestors, of our parents, our grandparents, like, oh, well just be quiet and take it because, you know, generationally, that's what we've had to do to survive and it's hurt us. So the way to actually address it is to address it, like talk about it. Like this is something that I've gone through. I don't want my children or future generations to go through. So address it by talking about it, bringing it to the forefront. Don't continue to perpetuate this idea of, oh, I don't talk about my business out in the streets or I don't seek professional help because I don't want other people to know what I'm going through. It's embarrassing. We talk about it and we actually address it by seeking out actual help. And that is the best step that we can take to actually talk about it. One type of therapy is not the therapy for everyone. Um, it might be group therapy. It might be healing circles. If we take it back to what has helped our generations like healing circles, a community, a collective like addressing these issues, which is now what they call group therapy, but finding some way to address the issues so that we can move past them. Like it's no longer acceptable to say, I'm not gonna talk about that. Or we don't talk about that in this family. Or we don't talk about that in this community cause what has it done for us? Nothing but allowed these painful trauma responses to continue.
Alicia Garza:
You know, is it important for us to address secondary trauma and post traumatic stress syndrome? When we are caring for folks of color, marginalized communities, communities that are being left out and left behind, do we need to take other things into account as we're providing care?
Danielle Hairston:
Yes, absolutely. And that's probably a qualm that I have an issue that I have with medical education now or psychiatric ed education or mental health education. How can you even think or begin to treat someone without understanding all the systems and institutions that have marginalized and oppressed them? How can you ask if they're traumatized, how can you treat their depression? How can you address their anxiety without addressing the source mm-hmm
Alicia Garza:
Listen.
Danielle Hairston:
I mean, that's, that's not the answer. I don't wanna see another paper about black people resilience. I don't.
Alicia Garza:
Is there anything else you want our listeners to know?
Danielle Hairston:
I think the key takeaway is that we, we have to talk about things. We have to address them. And I just don't mean therapy. Therapy is great. Therapy is helpful, but if you need to take medication, you need to pray. You need to pray. You need to do all of them. It's fine. We need to, it's been going on for so long. We need to take whatever weapons against this issue that we can form. Like whatever it is, take your medication, go to therapy, do your mindfulness, your meditation, your boundaries, your self care, whatever it is, do any combination of it necessary so that you can survive so that you can stop the transfer of this trauma. You did not create this trauma. You're not responsible for this, but you can do what you can to make sure that we don't continue to perpetuate it. We don't continue to let it linger on. I think that in the case we're gonna hear about in the podcast and the docu-series is now I would hope that people would be questioning this. If this case was lifted from 1986 and put into 2022, people should be talking about this. People should be questioning this. People should be throwing this up in the faces of the lack of, I was gonna say of the justice system, but the lack of justice system, the legal system, like where's the investigation, where's the autopsy. Where's the evidence like we have to speak up against these things. We can't just say that. Oh, the way that I survived, the way that my grandmother survived, the way that my mother survives is just to not talk about it and just be quiet, like being quiet and not talking about it has not gotten any of us anywhere. Never have. I heard someone be able to heal and get through trauma by not talking about it and just internalizing everything and keeping it inside it. And that never ends well. That's never the, the happy ending to anyone's story. Mm
Alicia Garza:
It's been wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us for educating us and for inspiring us to be the kind of change we wanna see in the world.
Danielle Hairston:
Well, that is you Alicia, thank you for Black Lives Matter. Thank you. I know it's more than a hashtag. You are the advocate. You are the voice you are. Thank you for that for, from all of us, from everyone in the black mental health community, black physicians, like you, we are lucky to have you
Alicia Garza:
Thank you for loving on us so much and making sure that we're healthy so we can continue this fight. Thank you, Danielle. On the next episode, hope we'll talk with Rashad Robinson, president of color of change, who will discuss the journey forward.
Rashad Robinson:
I lead an organization called Color of Change, which is the largest online racial justice organization in the country. Driven by over 7 million members, black folks and allies of every race. We work to make systems work better for black people to create a more human and less a hostile world for black people. And as a result, all people. And we do that through strategic campaigns, campaigns that mobilize everyday people to hold institutions, accountable, government and corporations and media to the needs and concerns of our community.
Alicia Garza:
That's coming up next on uprooted for more on Keith Warren's case. Check out the mini series on Discovery Plus Uprooted is produced by Now This for discovery plus in partnership with Pod People special, thanks to the production team at Pod People. Rachel King, Matt Sav, Ivana Tucker, Jazzi Johnson, Liz Mak, Brian Rivers, Vincent Cacchione and Aimee Machado.